ma_testfandomcom-20200214-history
Talk:Living Witness (episode)
Chakotay Pronounciation Is it just me or did the historically recreated characters pronounce "Chakotay" in the same way that it was actually pronounced by everyone (most notably B'Elanna) in the very earliest episodes of Voyager? Perhaps this was intended as an in-joke? 23:21, February 10, 2010 (UTC) The Book After I remember reading about a book, years ago, that was going to be released, which took place in the time period of this episode. It was to be about the doctor and what happens to him after he leaves this planet. I cant seem to find it, does anyone here know what I'm talking about? It would be nice to add the name of the book to this article just so its known. I ended up finding it, it is one of the short stories in "Star Trek Strange New Worlds IV" called "Personal Log". Now I just need to get my hands on that book :) Year of episode? Shouldn't the year for this episode be 2771 instead of 2371? Kevin 16:39, 29 Jul 2005 (UTC) :Actually, it should be 2774 (2374 + 400). I'll edit accordingly. -- Miranda Jackson (Talk) 21:59, 13 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::Shouldnt it actually be much further than the 700 years into the future since, as is made clear in the last scene, it is all part of a simulation in the museum further still in the future? ::That is very true, was a further date given for the last scene? - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 21:49, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::I guess there's something wrong with the dates: :::Reactivated after lying inactive for 700 years, the Doctor tries to uncover the truth about war crimes supposedly committed by Voyager when they passed a planet four centuries ago. :::What exactly does that mean? The Doctor becomes inactive for whatever reasons, then Voyager continues the journey for 300 years (700-"four centuries") and passes a planet where something happens, then the Doctor is reactivated 400 years later? That can't be true, can it? -- Cid Highwind 22:12, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) :::Okay, let's ignore the ending part at first. The Doctor, according to what he said, was activated 700 years AFTER the 'incident' with Voyager. Thus we have a date of 3074 for the actions taking place during most of the episode. :::700 years, and I'm still caught in the middle of your little dispute. One might've hoped for a bit of social progress in the interim, as the Doctor says. :::Now, the further future sequence is vague in terms of era. There is no mention from the curator as to what year it takes place in. The best guess I can give is mid-to-late 3000s. - Adm. Enzo Aquarius 15:05, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::::What is the basis for saying that the scene at the very end takes place in 3774, as stated in the episode template? Unless there is some sort of citation for that, shouldn't it be changed to unknown?--31dot 22:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC) Tuvok Didn't the inital holographic recreation of Tuvok have a goatee, like the mirror Spock had? I'm pretty sure there was at least one appearance of Tuvok sporting a beard or goatee. Jesster79 18:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC) No, that was , where he played Tulak in the holo-novel. 01:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC) Proposal for a Summary I'm kind of new to wikipedia and project alpha so I don't feel confident just throwing this article onto the actual page. I'd really appreciate it if someone more experianced looked it over, made some edits, ESPECIALLY placing links (I don't know how to do that yet). If someone feels that the draft is ready for the actual article then feel free to do so, or just give comments on what you think should change. This is only a draft of my idea of a summary for this episode. ---- "Sometimes negotiations are not enough... Then we must resort to violence". The episode opens to a seemingly absurd version of Captain Janeway negotiating with a Vaskan diplomat about fighting a war with the allegedly inoccent Kyrians, in return for the way to a wormhole. All of a sudden, the screen freezes to hear a voice commentary from a Kyrian tour guide, named Quarren, explaining how after seven hundred years, they are still recovering from the acts of the evil Warship Voyager. A Vaskan participating in the tour asks how they know any of this is true, to which he is replied by the tour guide "Look at all the evidence we have." Quarren proceeds to tell his tour that a new data source has been uncovered and that it might contain personal logs or other proof directly from Voyager. After the Museum closes Quarren uses recreated tools from Voyager to attempt to open the data. "Please state the nature of the medical emergency" The data source is actually a backup copy of the EMH (The Doctor). Quarren tells him that as a mass murderer the Doctor will have to pay for his crimes. The Doctor is confused, wondering what crimes he is charged with. He then learns the Kyrian version of events. When he attempts to explain the correct version of events to Quarren, his explanation is met with skepticism. After some time to think, Quarren decides that the Doctor may be correct and that for seven hundred years the Kyrians have been teaching falsehood. The Doctor is then allowed to edit the simulation of Voyagers encounter with the Kyrians. This new recreation sparks a heated debate, as the Doctor's version of events implies that it was the Kyrians rather than the Vaskans who provoked the Great War. Still, some people do not believe the Doctor's testimony and demand that he be terminated. The Doctor, however, is convinced that with the medical tricorder that is on display he can prove that Tedran, a Kyrian hero and revolutionary, died at the hand of an Vaskan weapon. These new revelations snaps the tension that has been steadily building between the Kyrians and the Vaskans over the past hundreds of years. During the attack of a mob at the Museum, the Doctor accidentally loses the tricorder while trying to help Quarren, who was injured. After the attack, the Doctor states that he should be shut down, because he as an EMH is obliged to help people, not cause riots. Quarren convinces him that his information is vital and will save many more people. And so they look for the tricorder. The scene then cuts to a group of people standing around a viewscreen, with another tour guide explaining how this was a turning point in the people's history, and how it brought about equality between the Kyrians and the Vaskans. ---- Thanks Ubertrek 02:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC) *First of all, you mentioned "episode" in the first sentence, and stuff like "scene" throughout. Gotta keep in-trek point of view. Also, you may want to read over the links on your welcome, as they will be very helpful. To make a link, put double brackets around something. (Like Thy'lek Shran.) - AJ Halliwell 02:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC) *Thanks for your help with the links. What do you mean by an in-trek point of view. Feel free to actually put the stuff like double brackets right into the summary if you want to. Ubertrek 02:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC) Amazing! There is a Section 31 reference in this episode!! Wow Janeway mentions Section 31 in this episode! This episode aired only 21 days after !! What a great find! ;) --Bp 21:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC) :Yea, I remember thinking about the reference to the organization when I heard it prior. Could be a coincidence or a nod ;) - Enzo Aquarius 21:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC) ::Wait, I don't remember that. When does she say that? -- Reignfire 21:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC) :::It's when Janeway is heading to the mess hall to locate the Kyrian intruders. - Enzo Aquarius 21:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC) The Doctor's Backup I have a rationalization for The Doctor's backup: The memory module that the Kyrians stole was the only way to backup the doctor... and because it was updated every time the Doctor was deactivated... the wear and tear that the EMH was taking was also being stored on the module ( ) Please comment Digital Ronin 22:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC) : It's still a backup. It's still contrary to the notion that if the Doctor's program gets decompiled or re-initialized, or if his holo matrix degrades or if he's transferred to another system, he's gone. Not backed up - gone. Other episodes make it clear that there can't be another effective "copy" of the Doctor. 19:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC) 30th century Delta Quadrant? In , Q mentions that humans should arrive in the Delta Quadrant a hundred years after 2372. Here we are at least 700 years later... shouldn't the Federation have a significant presence in the Delta Quadrant by then? 00:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC) :Maybe the edges of the Delta Quadrant or maybe on the fringes of Borg space but not 60000 lightyears away from Earth. – 22:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC) Actually within 700 years time the Federation should have Already created some sort of faster than warp technology. Remember Temporal displacement drive?. That should have gotten any federation starship across to any point in the galaxy easily. Where they should have met the Kyrians again and explained what really happened to them. If the Andromeda Asendent can easily move any where within the range of 3 galaxies with Quantum slipstream drive A STAR TREK TECHNOLOGY! mind you. than the Federation should be able to do it much easier. -- Lindsay Lohan Phoenix (POSTNOTE: If you want to contact me back about this contact me through my User Talk page at Memory Gamma) 11:46 AM. (PST) 27 November 2008 The Voyager episode "Relativity" established that by the 29th century, Starfleet had developed time travel, used their technology to maintain the integrity of the timeline, and operated under a Temporal Prime Directive. It is likely that, in the same way that the Prime Directive forbids interference in civilizations which do not possess time warp technology, the Temporal Prime Directive probably forbids interference in civilizations which do not possess time travel technology. Since the Kyrians' historical understanding of their contact with Voyager is so inaccurate, it is reasonable to assume that they do not possess the ability to travel through time. Logically Starfleet probably has the ability to contact the Kyrians, but chooses not to do so in order to prevent cultural contamination. -- 06:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC) ::You know what I just realised? In the 700 years between the encounter and the EMH-backup reactivation, and again in whatever time periods are covered between then and the revelation that the EMH took a ship and headed for the AQ, there is no evidence at all of the Borg except within the reconstruction; even given the above discussion and theories about why the Federation hasn't made contact in that timeframe, this is mysterious. The Kyrian-Vaskan homeworld must be much closer to Borg space; they clearly know of the Borg enough to reconstruct the appearance of 7 of 9 (although it's possibly a reconstruction based on her original appearance, taken from some stolen database or other), and how the Borg operate. They also fit the criteria for races deemed worthy of assimilation by the Borg. So either the Borg are no longer a threat quite soon (in terms of the overall timescale of this episode) after the Voyager encounter(an idea that may have helped inspire the plot of Endgame), or the Kyrian-Vaskan homeworld is able to protect itself or be protected by successfully resistant species, or, for an explanation that provides an answer to why neither the Federation nor the Borg have made contact/destroyed them, space is really, really big, and they've been passed by. Not unlike the Enterprise-D continually being the first ship to chart an area of space (eg Cause and Effect) or make first contact with a new species despite spending most of its existence within or along the edges of the Federation's established (and presumably largely static within the space of a few decades) borders. Actually, it's quite like the Yridian problem in that regard; the Yridians are clearly never extinct (barring two being fetched from the past in a stolen - you know what, no, let's not go there), operate relatively close to the Federation, yet their homeworld is unknown, their species is unknown, until captain Ransom runs into some. Ransom's account of the Equinox' passage through the DQ is also wildly different to Voyager's (and the Silver Blood Voyager's, too - I think). ::So, to summarise, if anyone came to this article wondering how come the Federation or the Borg never made contact with/assimilated the Kyrian-Vaskan homeworld in oh, let's say a millenium or so, start to finish, or for that matter how the Yridians went undetected for so long on when clearly they're well known in the AQ by other species, a good answer is: space is really, really big. And three-dimensional. And as an example of this mechanic in Trek canon, there were probably all sorts of species in the Vulcan database that Enterprise would have made official first contact with in a putative Season Five, on behalf of Earth, but probably wouldn't have methodically sought out in any particular order. Especially since, in whatever episode it was where they were discussing fire-breathing dragons, it was implied the Vulcan database might contain inaccuracies, jokes, or just rumours. Really big, guys. Truly enormous. 01:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC) Please explain I know that you are not supposed to leave anything here but messages pertaining to the article. But I just saw this episode. Forgive me for violating the rules of the Article Talk Page but I MUST ask this: how in the hell does the ending fit into the established 'Voyager' timeline? It was not an alternate timeline, yet it has The Doctor staying on this planet and setting out for Earth 700 years later, among other things? How can this be? Please explain.– [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 22:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC) :First of all it is not the Doctor, it is a copy of his program taken from the backup module, or something to that effect. Second, it is 700 years later when this version of the Doctor is even activated again, so it obviously has not affected Voyager very much. Most probably Voyager's original EMH stayed in operation as normal, but they lost the ability to use his backup module, this is referenced in the background information. In Voyager's timeline, there is nothing stating that hundreds of years into the future, a copy of the Doctor's program shows up on Earth or somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant.– Vertex 23:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC) :: Ya but there are hull fragments and actual artifacts of the Voyager displayed in that museum. Surely those are not recreations or holographic pieces. If the Voyager returned back to Earth, then why would there be, 700 years later in the future a back-up of The Doctor including pieces of the ship in the Delta Quadrant? I dont think this episode makes much sense timeline-wise. – Distantlycharmed 23:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Yeah but Voyager got boarded, raided, pirated, blown up, hosed down, infiltrated, broken apart, so many times that it's not possible that no fragments of her got left behind in the Delta quadrant. --TribbleFurSuit 05:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC) ::: Yeah but those are very specific fragments and artifacts, like consoles and essential pieces, not just random fragments. The researcher is examining an artifact which is a storage device from the Voyager. The EMH backup module (which is this artifact) has the memories of the Doctor up until that point. The module itself was found in some ruins in the Delta Quadrant - probably the homeplanet of the aliens here. It would be a stretch to assume that Voyager got home, but somehow its fragments that were mysteriously scattered around the Quadrant were collected by a species that made them part of their history with the Doctor, on top of that, still being intact, having the full memory of what went on, while the REAL Doctor is back in the Alpha Quadrant. Moreover, let's say somehow the back up module was lost before Voyager got home, then it means no one noticed that the EMH backup module was missing? They just went on not noticing that the back-up module for one of their essential programs is missing? Apparently this whole episode as it really took place (with the Voyager being a "nice crew") happened sometime 4 years into their journey into the Delta Quadrant and not some other time. Anyway unless there is direct evidence from the episode (which there isnt actually) that this time-line fits into the rest, I have to agree with [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]] that with respect to the timeline, this episode doesn't make sense at all. – Distantlycharmed 21:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Ya but how do you know they '''didn't' miss the EMH backup module? How do you know "essential pieces" weren't lost, stolen, or whatever else, to be re-discovered by historians over hundreds of years? All I'm saying is that it's real easy to use one's imagination to perceive a consistent timeline. It's actually harder to look for and find evidence of inconsistency here. I like believing in the stories that were created for us all, but, I recognize that some folks won't suspend disbelief but do even actively contrive contradictions based not on onscreen evidence but on one's own delicate sensibility. Unless canon has Janeway saying "Good thing we retrieved every piece of Voyager that we ever lost and we didn't leave any of it behind back there in deltaspace!", then this difficulty is just imagination. I don't see any evidence of anything that suggests some timeline breakage happened, relating to the events of this episode. If you ask me, the "direct evidence from the episode... that this time-line fits into the rest" which you're looking for is totally unnecessary and that's why "there isnt actually" any. There are hundreds of other episodes that also lack any explicit statement that they're part of some well-fitted timeline - you're supposed to take that for granted until you're explicitly shown that a timeline fracture is occurring. ""Voyager got home, but somehow its fragments that were mysteriously scattered around the Quadrant were collected by a species that made them part of their history" - that's not a stretch of an assumption. It's canon. We don't have to hurt ourselves stretching to assume, demonstrate, extrapolate, defend, support or infer these things. We just have to see them happen before our eyes onscreeen. --TribbleFurSuit 03:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC) :::So you think there might be several versions of the Doctor going around the 4 Quadrants possibly being eventually activated and all going through various adventures and scenarios of their own? (someone could have copied the alleged "lost" back-up module several times after all). I guess maybe it is a matter of perspective and really wanting to believe in consistency, but I just dont see the point in holding on to absurd scenarios just because I really want to believe. It's one thing if there are minor elements not fitting in and when it comes to such things as "time travel" or playing with future timelines/scenarios it is always a somewhat mind-twisting thing anyway, but entering the realm of pure speculation and wild guesses to somehow force consistency where there is none, is another thing. There are episodes in the Star Trek universe that arent always consistent with other timelines or facts previously presented and I figure this is one of them. I guess I dont need to see consistency to appreciate the work. I just thought it was interesting that this one was one of those episodes...But to each his own...– Distantlycharmed 04:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Why in the world would I think Voyager lost more than one backup Doctor? The people who discovered this one sure didn't copy him. All they did was turn him on. Besides, it's speculation completely unsupported and not even remotely suggested by anything that ever happened onscreen. See? The effort you're putting into explaining how "implausible" this episode is, just gets you farther and farther away from canon. I maintain: there's no inconsistency to explain. There's no contradiction anywhere. Without any contradiciton or inconsistency, we're completely free to believe. Anyway, the original question has long since been answered: " It was not an alternate timeline, yet it has The Doctor staying on this planet... How can this be?" Answer: "it is not the Doctor, it is a copy of his program taken from the backup module". So it turns out that you don't actually agree with Eyes Only after all. She didn't know about the backup. You do, but still don't buy it. --TribbleFurSuit 20:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC) :::::Let's put this in a Forum next time. That's what they're for. As for this particular problem - there's no issue. Nothing was seen on screen. We don't know where they got the artifacts from, however, the very first scene that The Doctor creates shows that the Kyrian's stole as much equipment as they could as well as a statement that the Kyrian's must have stole the Backup Module - and that answers the entire question. — Morder 22:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Uncredited guest star? I think I've spotted Sarah Silverman, who played Rain Robinson in Future's End. She appears to be near the start, just as the guy announces the "Warship Voyager" and you see the people watching from the future. Avengah 22:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC) :Is this her? (at left) http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x23/livingwitness_033.jpg SennySix 22:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC) ::While I do see the resemblance - it's not her. --Jörg 22:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC) :::I don't really see the resemblance... also, she seems too short. Silverman is short (5'6"), but the person in that picture looks almost like a pre-teen girl. --From Andoria with Love 05:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC) ::::Why do people always imagine that name actors who have been guest stars return to play a role as a random extra in other episodes? I saw somebody else comment that they thought they saw Brad Dourif in the background as Suder in a non-Suder episode (after he the character was supposed to be dead, no less). This is incredibly naive -- if you think you see some well-known actor with a reputation to uphold, showing up on the set just to put in time hanging around all day in the hope of appearing as a barely-paid extra, there is a 99.9999% chance you are wrong b/c the world just does not work in that way. 10:07, June 22, 2012 (UTC) :::::I don't think, four years later, the user who started this question is following it any longer. 31dot 10:10, June 22, 2012 (UTC) ::::Well I read it four years later, didn't I? Therefore, other people will too. This is a public talk page not a one-on-one exchange. 09:46, June 24, 2012 (UTC) :::::Our practice generally is to consider years-older discussions archived; with more extensive talk pages we put them on a separate archive page, but on shorter pages they are left. If it is absolutely necessary for you to comment on an older discussion, the age of the discussion should at least be acknowledged, or a new section started. 31dot 10:14, June 24, 2012 (UTC) Latest Episode? :Chronologically, this episode is the latest of any of Star Trek to be aired, as its events are set further into the future than anything yet depicted. I thought some events in Enterprise took place in the 31st century? If so, wouldn't this statement be incorrect? TrekFan 14:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC) :Yeah, and show Daniels taking Archer to the 31st century where San Francisco was destroyed. It's not specified what the precise year was, so the note about Living Witness being latest is spec. I'm taking it out. Starfleetjedi 04:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC) ::Wasn't the destroyed San Francisco in an alternate/altered future? I think the comment refers to the "regular" universe that we see in most episodes, in which case it would be this episode.--31dot 14:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC) :::Even if that isn't the case doesn't this episode take place in the 32nd century at the end? I'll have to check but I remember 400 years and then another 400 for the final scene. 24th century + 8 centuries = 32nd century. — Morder 15:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC) :::Nevermind. It's 700 years+ (I wonder what episode I was thinking of) — Morder 15:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC) ::Although the destroyed San Francisco is an alternate, MA's century articles list alternate timeline events under the century in which the event may or may not have occurred. Even events projected into the future, but that did not happen, are listed. See: 26th century which mentions the arrival of the Enterprise in the Andromeda Galaxy ( ), and which also mentions the Battle of Procyon V. Therefore, without knowing what year it is when Daniels brings Archer to the 31st century, we cannot definitively say that "Living Witness" came before or after. Starfleetjedi 03:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC) :::I was not saying that alternate future events or projected events shouldn't be mentioned, but that those are not part of the "regular" timeline as this episode is. The comment might want to be reworded to make that clearer.--31dot 11:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Removed comment Removed the following as 1) a nitpick and 2) as inaccurate, as those characters were not actually the Voyager crew, and were based on inaccurate information. * The hologram of Chakotay in the simulation refers to Captain Janeway as "sir". Janeway prefers to be called "Captain" or "ma'am" in a crunch. --31dot 20:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC) : And some speculation too: :* However it is possible that The Doctor had a backup module created after the events of episode when starfleet could have helped voyager crew create a backup module, with this possibility it is also possible that all events of this episode happened only in a alternate timeline before Janeway changed the timeline during events of episode. :--TribbleFurSuit 18:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC) Removed the following comment, as we do not state what wasn't said or make assumptions. *The timeframe of this episode raises significant questions regarding the status of Starfleet and The Federation in the Prime 31st Century Timeline. During the story, including the epilogue which takes place several years later, there is no reference made by the Vaskans or Kyrians concerning knowledge and/or awareness of either organisation outside of their experiences with the Starship (formally 'Warship') Voyager. Given the steady advancement of space traversing technology, one would assume that exploration of the Delta Quadrant by the Federation would have been well underway by then, and that First Contact with the warp capable system would also have been established.--31dot 22:52, February 10, 2010 (UTC) ::Maybe the future Federation doesn't make contact unless the civilization has temporal technology, or some other standard beyond warp drive. 21:43, January 25, 2012 (UTC)Mike A background character identified? I purchased a Kyrian Accomplice costume from IAW, it was accompanied by a wardrobe tag reading "191 Living Witness", Character: "Dignitary", Played by "Nancy Conn". I put a picture of it at: http://www.stup.net/corey/4004-1ko.jpg :Thank you. She is indeed wearing the costume from the auction. I'll add that information to the article. -- Ltarex, 12:56 (CET), 24 June 2012 Yellow eyes I find it interesting that the android version of the Doctor has yellow(ish) eyes. This might be a reference to Data's eyes. Any idea if this was intentional? Is it worth noting in the article? :It's noted on the page for the Emergency Medical Android. That's probably enough.--31dot 01:55, March 18, 2012 (UTC)